r/changemyview:

u/xander707

I have never claimed that democrats dont do it. Only that its not even close to equal between the two sides, and I confidently stand by that position.
u/xander707

Conservatives do not have a monopoly on this by any stretch of the imagination. They do though, which is why you wont find any instances where they agree by majority that their candidate lost. You having to go all the way back to Obama versus Romney to think of a situation where Democrats thought their candidate didn’t wipe the floor with their opponent is telling. Im more than happy to go over any specific debate during that time period to now. When you realize that after Obama its literally just Trump, the only thing its telling of is that Trump is a terrible debater. On the flip side, I myself was not politically engaged until the Obama era, so I cant speak to George W Bush era debates or Bill Clinton debates etc, Im sure the further back you go, the more variation in wins/losses there would be. A much closer example could have been this campaign’s Vice Presidential debate. Im specifically talking about presidential candidate debates though. However, even for the majority of the actual Democratic Party, when asked who won that debatedespite what you may have seen on Redditmore Democrats still gave the win to Obama (second section of the first chart at the top of the page): Whats odd is that your very same link says this; The vast majority of Republican voters who watched the debate (95%) say that Romney did the better job, and many Democratic voters agree. Democrats are split in their assessment of who did better: 45% say Romney, 44% Obama. However, for the second debate in that same election, Republicans did admit that Obama came back strong and took back the momentum that Romney had after the first debate. Here’s an analysis from Fox News of all places: But thats just an opinion piece from Fox, acknowledging that overall, voters resonated with Obamas performance. But this is irrelevant from what we are discussing; why not post more poll data showing the partisan split? For instance, https://news.gallup.com/poll/158237/obama-judged-winner-second-debate.aspx?utm_source=alert&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=syndication&utm_content=morelink&utm_term=Politics Republicans show a similar propensity to favor their own party’s nominee, naming Romney the winner, although by a slightly smaller margin, 78% to 9%. Again you wont find a single instance where a majority of republicans think their candidate lost. You will find instances where thats true for democrats. Youve yet to counter this point. Your other points about dodging questions and giving evasive answers just made me laugh. This is what politicians (not just Republican politicians, mind you) do. Did you not watch Harris’s actual debate performance? Or any of the 3 or 4 interviews she actually gave? Again I am more than happy to deep dive any presidential debate over the last 20 years with you. We can absolutely go into the Harris vs Trump debate and discuss each candidates performance.
u/xander707

Nope, youre just making a bad argument.
u/xander707

So youre saying Biden barely lost? Hardly even noticeable?
u/xander707

That’s a pretty self-serving analysis. When is the last time the Democrats declared themselves the losers of a debate? To be fair, democrats typically win their debates against republicans 😉 You may find that to be a cop out answer; however we just covered Bidens evident loss to Trump. I will also talk about a second high profile instance in the last 20 years where a major democrat candidate lost against a Republican in a debate; but before that I would challenge you to find even one instance in the last 20 years where a majority of conservatives agree that a Republican presidential candidate lost to a democrat. It cant be done, because the majority of conservatives dont objectively evaluate debate performances. Its just whoever said the most things they agree with, has won. Which renders the debate pointless, because obviously they will always agree more with the conservative candidate. But the lies, ability to follow the rules, provide adequate answers to the actual questions they are asked, and respond to their opponents claims with facts and without strawmanning, isnt taken into consideration. So when half of Trumps answers have literally nothing – zero to do with the questions hes been asked – his supporters dont stop and think wow my guy cant even answer a basic question. Instead, whatever word salad slop came out of his mouth included something they agree with and therefore it must have been a good point. When Trump tells a blatant lie and is even called out by moderators, his supporters just claim the moderators are being mean to him. Of course the meaner Trump is and the more he bullies, the more hes winning. And not to even mention that we just dont live in a shared reality with Trump supporters anymore with regards to facts and lies. So when Trump says that people are eating cats and dogs or that democrats support doing after birth abortions etc. they just roll with it. Anyways, back here on planet Earth where sane and reasonable people live, democrats are capable of objectively analyzing a debate and calling out poor performances, as rare as they may be. We didnt say Biden lost because we agreed more with Trumps messaging; we said Biden lost because he gave a shit performance and came off as an old fart too slow and incapable of defending his ideas and policies against Trump. So what is the second instance of a democrat losing? Not Harris, Not Biden 2020, and not even Hillary. It was surprisingly Obama, who is highly regarded for his speaking skills. Possibly the best presidential orator of the last few decades if not more. And yet, general consensus is that he lost his first debate to Romney. I remember vividly, after that first debate, alllll the way back in 2012, the front page of Reddit featured a post accompanied with an image of Obama walking away from the debate with a large bandaid photoshopped on his ass, because he had just got his ass kicked by Romney. Even here in the liberal Reddit hivemind, Redditors were furiously debating and trying to defend it, but it was clear he gave a poor performance and dems were shaken and nervous about it. Luckily, he was able to turn things around and dog walked Romney in the following debates. But had he not done so, I truly believe it could have resulted in an election loss because yes, democrats are able to criticize their own. We arent cultists. We dont just give our candidate a constant 90% approval rating that never wavers no matter what they are doing as leaders. And you will never find comparable situations on the right. While both sides have their partisans and loyalists, it is far from equal. One side is incapable of ever producing a majority consensus that their candidate lost to democrat.
u/xander707

Why? Thats what Trump does in all of his debates, nothing weird about it. Biden losing to Trump IS extremely embarrassing, for that very reason. As you point out, his own party largely accepted Biden lost. Something you would never see from the right because the vast majority of them will claim Trump won just because he shit his pants effortlessly. Not something to be proud of.
u/xander707

Buddy, re-read the comment again. Im saying they are both too fucking old. I liked Biden and thought he was a good president, but it was obvious hes just too old. He should never have attempted to run for a second term. He was meant to be a bridge president and thats exactly what he should have stuck to. Obligatory reminder that Trump is also too fucking old. MFer is older than the Transistor ffs.
u/xander707

I was saying Trump is older than the transistor, actually.
u/xander707

Again, its because only dems hold their candidate to any standards. Youre right, because debates can really only hurt dems – if they perform badly – and dont really help much if they perform well. So what point is there in doing them? But I think Dem voters like to see a good debater defend dem ideals in a debate setting. Its reassuring to see a candidate think on their feet and reinforce that they believe in and can adequately defend the ideals and policies we want. I think its also good to give us a chance to re-evaluate if we dont like the performance or outcome of the debate. Had Kamala won, this entire conversation would be happening under a completely different context where we see the value in being critical of our own candidate and making a change. Obviously it didnt turn out that way this time, but thats how it goes in the real world. Sometimes you lose even if you made good moves.
u/xander707

It needs to be said that dems respond differently to poor debate performances than republicans do. Trump can just smear shit on the floor and his side will declare him winner. He can tell blatant lies and theyll just ignore it or go along with it. Dems on the other hand actually hold their candidates to certain standards. Dems freaked out because we arent just blind cultists who will follow Biden or whoever the dem nominee is with unwavering, unconditional support. Which is a good thing. Unfortunately, it does mean that dem candidates have to meet a higher standard, and Bidens debate performance didnt meet it. I liked Biden and thought he was a good president, but it was obvious hes just too old. He should never have attempted to run for a second term. He was meant to be a bridge president and thats exactly what he should have stuck to. Obligatory reminder that Trump is also too fucking old. MFer is older than the Transistor ffs.